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	<title>Comments on: Sex and Pizza</title>
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		<title>By: The Year That Was: 2008 In Review &#124; Ellie Lumpesse: A Pretentious Pervert</title>
		<link>http://www.lumpesse.com/2008/06/sex-and-pizza/comment-page-1/#comment-20911</link>
		<dc:creator>The Year That Was: 2008 In Review &#124; Ellie Lumpesse: A Pretentious Pervert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 02:32:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lumpesse.com/?p=373#comment-20911</guid>
		<description>[...] - I spent a lot of time thinking about sex work in both text and audio forms. I also got sort of pissy and ridiculous about blogging [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8211; I spent a lot of time thinking about sex work in both text and audio forms. I also got sort of pissy and ridiculous about blogging [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Being Amber Rhea &#187; Blog Archive &#187; 5th Feminist Carnival of Sexual Freedom and Autonomy</title>
		<link>http://www.lumpesse.com/2008/06/sex-and-pizza/comment-page-1/#comment-19832</link>
		<dc:creator>Being Amber Rhea &#187; Blog Archive &#187; 5th Feminist Carnival of Sexual Freedom and Autonomy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 11:22:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lumpesse.com/?p=373#comment-19832</guid>
		<description>[...] draws a cute and highly effective analogy between sex work and food service:  Most people would see this example as ridiculous but they [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] draws a cute and highly effective analogy between sex work and food service:  Most people would see this example as ridiculous but they [...]</p>
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		<title>By: figleaf</title>
		<link>http://www.lumpesse.com/2008/06/sex-and-pizza/comment-page-1/#comment-19817</link>
		<dc:creator>figleaf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 07:03:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lumpesse.com/?p=373#comment-19817</guid>
		<description>Hi Ellie,

If everyone recognized that the sex-worker was the chef and not the pizza then there wouldn&#039;t be any turmoil about prostitution at all.  My big epiphany, just about this time last year, was that while there are exceptions to everything, at least based on behavior women almost always see themselves as the chef, men are raised to see women as... well... the pizza.  Or more accurately not as chefs but as... say... doormen you either have to seem cool to up front, work your way into their good graces, or bribe up front in order to get through the gate.

Anyway, I&#039;m not saying your perception isn&#039;t exactly right *for you,* the problem is getting it through too many sex-worker customer&#039;s and, especially, *non-customers&#039;* thick skulls.  And here&#039;s the deal: if or when everyone gets that you&#039;re the chef and not the pizza or the doorman the problem of paying for sex goes away.

One last thing about the food analogy (which I love, by the way, and have a whole category for on my blog) is that while I totally agree (really, seriously) that an evening with a prostitute is and should be as acceptet as an evening at a dinner theater, the big difference is that (outside of maybe Lake Woebegone tales and maybe central Utah) nobody feels guilty, or gets hurt, when someone eats at a restaurant.  Which doesn&#039;t mean prostitution&#039;s wrong, just that simply legalizing it without a resolution to the hurt/guilt/shame the customer participates in back in the home there will still be problems.  And, I might add, without that resolution then magically eliminating prostitution outright woudn&#039;t change anything either.

And finally, there&#039;s the whole thing about how only men hire prostitutes.  Given, especially, the *intense* frustration I&#039;ve encountered from otherwise happily partnered women around the internet I still don&#039;t understand why that would be.

And finally, responding to a comment Z made on my blog that your pizza vs. chef comparison addresses -- men are still indoctrinated to see *all* sex, including prostitution, dating, and marriage as about, basically, buying that pizza... or (another comparison) saying crap like &quot;why buy the chef when the pizza&#039;s free?&quot;  So the issue isn&#039;t *just* with prostitution (and that&#039;s part of why I say it&#039;s not a problem *just* that sex-workers have to solve.)

As always I really enjoy your blog, Ellie, even with I (almost) don&#039;t agree.

Take care,

figleaf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Ellie,</p>
<p>If everyone recognized that the sex-worker was the chef and not the pizza then there wouldn&#8217;t be any turmoil about prostitution at all.  My big epiphany, just about this time last year, was that while there are exceptions to everything, at least based on behavior women almost always see themselves as the chef, men are raised to see women as&#8230; well&#8230; the pizza.  Or more accurately not as chefs but as&#8230; say&#8230; doormen you either have to seem cool to up front, work your way into their good graces, or bribe up front in order to get through the gate.</p>
<p>Anyway, I&#8217;m not saying your perception isn&#8217;t exactly right <strong>for you,</strong> the problem is getting it through too many sex-worker customer&#8217;s and, especially, <strong>non-customers&#8217;</strong> thick skulls.  And here&#8217;s the deal: if or when everyone gets that you&#8217;re the chef and not the pizza or the doorman the problem of paying for sex goes away.</p>
<p>One last thing about the food analogy (which I love, by the way, and have a whole category for on my blog) is that while I totally agree (really, seriously) that an evening with a prostitute is and should be as acceptet as an evening at a dinner theater, the big difference is that (outside of maybe Lake Woebegone tales and maybe central Utah) nobody feels guilty, or gets hurt, when someone eats at a restaurant.  Which doesn&#8217;t mean prostitution&#8217;s wrong, just that simply legalizing it without a resolution to the hurt/guilt/shame the customer participates in back in the home there will still be problems.  And, I might add, without that resolution then magically eliminating prostitution outright woudn&#8217;t change anything either.</p>
<p>And finally, there&#8217;s the whole thing about how only men hire prostitutes.  Given, especially, the <strong>intense</strong> frustration I&#8217;ve encountered from otherwise happily partnered women around the internet I still don&#8217;t understand why that would be.</p>
<p>And finally, responding to a comment Z made on my blog that your pizza vs. chef comparison addresses&#8212;men are still indoctrinated to see <strong>all</strong> sex, including prostitution, dating, and marriage as about, basically, buying that pizza&#8230; or (another comparison) saying crap like &#8220;why buy the chef when the pizza&#8217;s free?&#8221;  So the issue isn&#8217;t <strong>just</strong> with prostitution (and that&#8217;s part of why I say it&#8217;s not a problem <strong>just</strong> that sex-workers have to solve.)</p>
<p>As always I really enjoy your blog, Ellie, even with I (almost) don&#8217;t agree.</p>
<p>Take care,</p>
<p>figleaf</p>
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		<title>By: gMan</title>
		<link>http://www.lumpesse.com/2008/06/sex-and-pizza/comment-page-1/#comment-19816</link>
		<dc:creator>gMan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 05:03:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lumpesse.com/?p=373#comment-19816</guid>
		<description>Ellie, this post really speaks to my previous comment about removing the shame from patronizing a sex worker and does give a new and interesting take on the topic.  Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ellie, this post really speaks to my previous comment about removing the shame from patronizing a sex worker and does give a new and interesting take on the topic.  Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Being Amber Rhea &#187; Blog Archive &#187; links for 2008-06-12</title>
		<link>http://www.lumpesse.com/2008/06/sex-and-pizza/comment-page-1/#comment-19814</link>
		<dc:creator>Being Amber Rhea &#187; Blog Archive &#187; links for 2008-06-12</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 01:36:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lumpesse.com/?p=373#comment-19814</guid>
		<description>[...] Lumpesse - Sex and Pizza &#8220;But, you will say this is objectifying, how can you compare yourself to a pizza that can be ordered up and delivered to anyone with a credit card? Here is the important thing to keep in mind. The sex worker isn?t the pizza, he or she is the chef.&#8221; to sexwork awesome fsc reference sexuality [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Lumpesse &#8211; Sex and Pizza &#8220;But, you will say this is objectifying, how can you compare yourself to a pizza that can be ordered up and delivered to anyone with a credit card? Here is the important thing to keep in mind. The sex worker isn?t the pizza, he or she is the chef.&#8221; to sexwork awesome fsc reference sexuality [...]</p>
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		<title>By: RoninBro</title>
		<link>http://www.lumpesse.com/2008/06/sex-and-pizza/comment-page-1/#comment-19813</link>
		<dc:creator>RoninBro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 18:02:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lumpesse.com/?p=373#comment-19813</guid>
		<description>This discussion\topic reminds me of something a comedian said once: men dont&#039; pay sex-workers for sex, they pay them to &#039;leave&#039; afterwards. I don&#039;t entirely agree with that position, but only because I would add that many want to just GET TO IT and not have to dance around the issue. Some men want a complete fantasy, some want a specific fetish, and some want someone to listen [yeah, right]. Personally, I have always said that I respect a man that frequents a sex-worker more than one that goes to strip clubs. One is being direct about what they want, while the other one is still somewhat in denial...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This discussiontopic reminds me of something a comedian said once: men dont&#8217; pay sex-workers for sex, they pay them to &#8216;leave&#8217; afterwards. I don&#8217;t entirely agree with that position, but only because I would add that many want to just <span class="caps">GET TO IT</span> and not have to dance around the issue. Some men want a complete fantasy, some want a specific fetish, and some want someone to listen [yeah, right]. Personally, I have always said that I respect a man that frequents a sex-worker more than one that goes to strip clubs. One is being direct about what they want, while the other one is still somewhat in denial&#8230;</p>
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